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2011-04-04 at 23:56

Compromise with Horizon Wind Inc. approved

By Jamie Smith, tbnewswatch.com
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By a majority decision, councillors Monday night avoided a multimillion dollar lawsuit by voting for a compromise with a wind developer.

Councillors voted 8-4 in favour of a compromise with Horizon Wind Inc., effectively ending the $126 million lawsuit the company levied against the city. The vote followed seven deputations during a committee of the whole meeting at city hall.

The potential 79 megawatt project on the Nor’ Wester mountains will be laid out in five phases. The first phase, called Beta, will generate a potential 16.5 megawatts of power through eight turbines, which are mainly southeast of Little Norway Road.

Decommissioning would be provided by the company at $20,000 per turbine after 16 years.

City solicitor Rosalie Evans said the deal also states the company cannot have permanent access to turbines through Loch Lomond Road until the company passed the province’s Renewable Energy Approvals.

"They would not actually build a road until, and unless, the project is approved by the province," Evans said. "We would not have a road to nowhere."

Until that time the company will use Little Norway Road to access the locations.
Mayor Keith Hobbs said he doesn’t feel comfortable because the deal leaves him with too many unanswered questions.

"It was the worst decision that has ever been made in this city," Hobbs said. "I can’t see one mistake made compounded by another".

The deal states one per cent, up to 15 acres, of the total trees can be cut. But that’s still devastating to an area the mayor considers a wonder of the world. Blasting, which requires a professional engineering study, will also ruin the area, he added.

"Green energy is not supposed to leave a footprint and this is leaving a major boot print," Hobbs said. "You’re gonna blast the crap out of that mountain."

Coun. Ken Boshcoff agreed that the deal was a bad one. Now that certain turbines are allowed to be 185.5 metres tall instead of the original 100 metres in Horizon’s REA, people are going to be upset. The councillor added that a potential increase to the number of turbines overall will also be uncomfortable to many residents. 

 "I would think it’s a valid case for what they call righteous anger," he said. "This city is going down a path that we will all regret."

But Coun. Andrew Foulds said the city is facing a $126 million lawsuit. Even if it fought and only had to pay half of that, Thunder Bay couldn’t build new roads for five years to pay off the damages. While $20,000 per turbine might be low for some people, at least it’s something, he added.

"Perhaps it is lower than many people would like but it is better than nothing," Foulds said.

Coun. Iain Angus, echoing Foulds’ statements, said he had to support the deal.
 
"Actually a fifth of that (lawsuit) would be what we paid for the hospital," he said.
Angus added that council had plenty of opportunities to raise questions and concerns, and that he believed the topics discussed Monday night had been dealt with.

"I’m satisfied that we have all the information we need to make a decision," Angus said.
Wind Concerns Ontario president John Laforet, one of seven opponents to make a deputation to the city, said council had to decide whether they were a municipality or a wind farm proponent.

The deal, Laforet believes, shows that Horizon can bully the city and get whatever they want. Laforet said the city was just avoiding one lawsuit before facing many more from residents.

"You’re setting yourselves up for a fight," Laforet told council. "Residents don’t lose these fights."

Mike Payne, a member of the Nor’Wester Mountain Escarpment Protection Committee said the committee is disappointed with council’s decision.

He said the committee will confer with their legal counsel about how to proceed, but couldn’t say whether the group plans to raise lawsuits against the city.

"But it’s definitely a possibility," said Payne.
 
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Comments

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Peng says:
A sad day for Thunder Bay and a decision that I believe we will regret in the future

THis so called compromise has given Horizon carte blanche to build what ever it wants.As a property owner, we have zero input from now on.

Councillors who voted yes to this deal have sold their principles, and made a bad deal worse just to try to save their own skins.
4/5/2011 12:03:44 AM
Peng says:
The costs of fighting this lawsuit will look like a bargain when we are faced with decommisioning costs

But then again, that will be another Councils problem- Johnson, Foulds, Angus, etc will be gone
4/5/2011 12:11:14 AM
windphart says:
Funny how it all comes out now when there's nothing we can do about it. For the past two years the city (and Horizon at their so called "Open" house meetings) have been talking about a dozen turbines when they both knew there's a potential for over 50.
Larger turbines: Do you remember council talking about this a year ago? No. they didn't want you to know this.

They not only gave away 50, you, your children and I will pay for decomissioning as $20,000 doesn't cover a tenth of the costs in today's dollars. How much will it be in 25 years times 50 turbines? It's pool six all over again.
The city is giving up loch lomond road. That was the real stickler to Horizon, not the location. No road, no access. We simply gave it away. If we had an administrator with half a brain that would have been used as a bargaining chip but, no...let's give it away.
I can't build a shed without a huge pile of paper work but they rubber stamped this in 48hours.
4/5/2011 12:11:42 AM
passlake says:
money is replaceable.

the environment is not.

we were failed by the people elected to represent us..
4/5/2011 12:21:54 AM
tbay87 says:
Between council and administratin, it's hard to believe how incompetant this city's leadership is. No wonder people get angry at the "sunshine list" every year: lawyers and managers in the private sector aren't allowed to screw up something so badly and keep their jobs. It sounds like this "compromise" was basically allowing Horizon to blackmail whatever they wanted out of the city.
4/5/2011 12:26:37 AM
ohno says:
Who got us into this mess with Horizon to begin with? Who got paid what under the table?

All the concerns and issues should have been settled before we signed a contract where we could face a lawsuit of this caliber

4/5/2011 1:43:01 AM
wayne says:
Let's move forward now...and I'm glad that Hobb's shaky-voiced strategy (obviously endorsed by the gallery), was defeated. Ruberto is another guy that needs to get in touch with reality and progress of green energy. Rydholm was just defending her constituency, so cut her some slack.
4/5/2011 3:45:38 AM
tbayguy009 says:
I think it is a sad day for demorcracy in general. This is yet another fine example of how government can change people's lives with the stroke of a few pens. Let it be known, that any study do 'look' into anything, just means that 'it' is going to happen. Public input (with police protection if necessary) isn't what they want. It is submission that they force upon the public.
4/5/2011 5:11:49 AM
Gord says:
For once, I agree with the Mayor - this is the worst decision the City has ever made. It is clear that adminisration is not capable nor qualified to handle a project of this size. I am embarassed for our City - Council got taken for a long ride by a developer and intimidated into a really bad deal.
4/5/2011 5:29:13 AM
chezhank says:
"LEGACY PROJECT" NAMED FOR CONTRIBUTORS
Tbnewswatch.com

4/5/2011 6:07:10 AM
imbroglio says:
Cool Picture. I'd have no problem at all living with that view. Quite impressive really.
4/5/2011 4:35:01 PM
chezhank says:
My apologies for including councillor Ruberto in the hall of shame "legacy project" photo....I stand corrected.
Tbnewswatch.com

4/5/2011 9:34:22 PM
cachinnate says:
Looks like a pretty good view to me. Too bad all those pesky houses are in the way.
4/6/2011 10:56:11 AM
combatwombat says:
dont worry the powers of "infrasound" will wipe those houses away as if they were tissue paper in a tornado! in fact the whole plain will be scoured clean down to bedrock, if you belive what some are saying.
4/7/2011 9:48:24 AM
panzerIV says:
I think that horizon needs to do a little relationship mending with the citizens and the city. Maybe helping to fund some tree plantings or something else.

4/5/2011 6:37:33 AM
myopic not foolish says:
Yeah! Like that's going to happen.
4/5/2011 11:24:08 AM
treesrgood says:
If they wanted to mend relationships they'd start by being honest with the people -- their true intentions re: location and size of project, size of turbines..... They would put up a reasonable amount for decommissioning vs. pittance, they would allow input into where on the 17000 acres to put these. They couldn't care less about TBay - Toronto maybe, but not TBay
4/6/2011 9:25:36 AM
Tbaylifer says:
It is unfortunate that we re elected these council members that not only made a bad deal with this project but also the Marina. Johnson, Foulds, Angus as well as others have lost touch with the citizens of this community and because of this we all will loss a beautiful area. All this for $4000 per turbine annually and 2% of the take. I for one will remember these names in the next election. City council should stop smoking sweet grass at council meetings. It's just for the ceremony's don't inhale.
4/5/2011 6:45:48 AM
mvp's ballin says:
Residents of Thunder Bay, your inept city council and city administration 'just got owned' in other words Horizon Wind is your daddy!

Ballin!!!!
4/5/2011 7:03:50 AM
tiredofit says:
I believe it was Miss Evans who said a while back that we will face the lesser of the two evils in court. Well... here we go again. Whats to say that the resident's won't now file a 100 million dollar lawsuit? Who wins? NO ONE but HORIZON as usual.

For those who think the Neebing resident's don't have a case, your in for a big suprise. There's a lot of money in the area and a large portion are more than happy to contribute to a lawsuit. It's not about making money off of the city, it's about protecting our investments, nothing more. We can hire big ugly lawyers just as well as Horizon. Sorry Thunder Bay.
4/5/2011 7:05:23 AM
maple says:
Gutless, Clueless Council - Again Manipulated by Administration. Too scared to fight a Lawsuit; so we'll bend over and give this Bully 1/2 our landmass - Administration should all be fired for getting into this mess in the first place and then giving everything over to this Bully.

Horizon walked into town and stole our land. Well done City Admin & Council; OR is someone trying to hide the truth from coming out? Who brought this bully to town? Who from Council and Administration are those named in the lawsuit? Mark Smith, Rosalee Evans and Tim Commisso should all be fired!!!!

Sad, Sad Day for Thunder Bay; We aren't "Superior by Nature" We are "Thunder Bay - Nature for Sale"
4/5/2011 7:11:45 AM
maple says:
Council won't stand up to protect its own citizens. No one should feel safe -- What's planned for your neighbourhood without your knowledge? City Administration is a joke and couldn't plan a barbeque. Council should be ashamed.
4/5/2011 7:33:29 AM
Ranma says:
Would you prefer the city be on the hook for 126 million? Let's see we have 110 000 people in the city, over 20 000 are living at or below poverty, so that leaves about 90 000 people to tax. say roughly 25% of those are kids, so that leaves around 70k people to tax to pay for the 126 million. hrmm 1800 dollars each. Would you like to line up at city hall to pay your share? I know I can not afford it as I am one of those living at the poverty line, even with 3 part time jobs.
4/5/2011 7:40:19 AM
realistic1 says:
Rosalie Evans should be forced to resign. She needs to be held accountable for the binding mistakes in these agreements (2011 & 2007) - and even if she "can't remember what was said and couldn't read the minds of 13 councillors in 2007", she knew what was presented to Council. Obviously, no one researched the issues enough back in 2007, so the City signed a deal that had numerous binding flaws. And now the citizens and taxpayers pay, and pay, and pay. The insanity must end.
4/5/2011 7:40:30 AM
Steven says:
Hobbs is right in 2 ways:

1) It is the worst deal in our city's history. We give up quite alot, and get nothing.

2) We had to agree to the deal. We have no financial wiggle room and a massive debt. The last thing we need is a full out court battle over $126,000,000.00.

I hope everyone remembers the councillors who were around when this whole thing was started, and voted for it all along the way. Turf these idiots at the next election.
4/5/2011 7:40:54 AM
tudor says:
okay everyone relax. Before you all start screaming about this deal just slow down, take a deep breath and remain calm. I know I read comments in the above article about the potential for the lawsuit as a reason some councillors voted for this but don't you remember our former Mayor telling us the lawsuit was completely baseless. Didn't our city manager tell us the same thing publicly. Nothing to worry about we heard. Everything will be all right we heard. Other members of that council telling us the same thing as they were asking for our vote. Nothing to fear and now they use the threat of a lawsuit to tell us why we need to sign this deal.
Like many on this site I keep harping on who is to really blame. Since this disaster first hit T.Bay it has been one boondoggle after another and the people to blame are the members of the past city council and those in administration who signed this deal. Now we can settle for $20,000 decommissioning for each turbine because they forgot to put it in last time. Fantastic. I wouldn't let these clowns negotiate with a five year old.

Heads should be rolling, people should be let go. This situation did not have to happen and it was all done in the city's desire to lease a little land for a few pennies without thinking of the long term consequences of what they were doing. It is not about windmills or green energy. It is about a bad deal, negotiated by our leaders, that has just been compounded again as a bad deal to avoid a lawsuit from a contract we should never have signed in the first place. Don't worry said our former mayor. What a lovely legacy she left us. She should be very proud of those giant windmills and the great deal she gave to Horizon.

And we voted them all back in except one. Just who are the dummies, our leaders or our voters.
4/5/2011 7:51:21 AM
combatwombat says:
I am not in faviour of this it was an poorly thought out deal but deal it was.
And perhaps some councillors thought to "save their skins" as you put it , but what of saving our residents some part of a 100 plus million dollar lawsuit?
i'd say that was the most responsible thing.
4/5/2011 8:02:03 AM
Chaos says:
Welcome to Blunder Bay.

Moral of story: sue the City and they will capitulate and give you what you want and more. Sadly City told the public that this lawsuit is without merit and will fight it and eventually win. Mislead again.

There should be a public inquiry by an independent party to provide the public details to how this happened and who is responsible. Heads should roll for this.

4/5/2011 8:03:32 AM
Swirly-Q says:
I'm really trying to give Mayor Hobbs the benefit of the doubt - I *think* his heart is in the right place - but more and more he is becoming an embarrassment. How can "You’re gonna blast the crap out of that mountain" in any way be considered constructive? That type of grandstanding is not helpful.

His petulent demands for better answers further display his ignorance. There's no way anyone can provide exact numbers for blasting quantities at this point without extensive geotechnical investigations. Again, he's simply putting on a show for the cameras so he won't have to take responsibility for anything.
4/5/2011 8:09:49 AM
truth says:
Peng .. you do have input .. the fact is the majority of residents in Thunder Bay want this to happen .. what about their input?
4/5/2011 8:30:49 AM
tiredofit says:
Let's see the poll results on that please. Based on an informal poll done by the Escarpment Committee, the majority of residents aren't in favor of it. If you spewing Horizon's poll results, I suggest you take a look the questions again. The main question that was asked was: "Are you in favor of alternate energy forms such as wind” Even members of the committee are in favor of it.

The committee simply asked, are you in favor of placing 450ft turbines on top of the mountains, the answer was a clear and resounding NO.

Long on the short of it is, you can skew the question to get any answer you want. Polling firms are very good at creating these kinds of questions (I worked for one for few years, it's a given in the industry that you "attempt" to ask the questions in a neutral, however the client is always right)

4/5/2011 6:32:49 PM
The Wolf says:
Is it just me or is Mr Hobbs quickly becoming a Drama Queen every time he address the media and in meetings?


Worst deal ever? If this was true our city is in pretty good shape as this deal is far short of a bad deal.
4/5/2011 8:34:10 AM
Mazda323 says:
We should set up a blockade on Little Norway Road.
4/5/2011 8:52:37 AM
The Beaver..... says:
This is what happens when people remove themselves from the political scene and forget to vote at Election time.The people that voted for this last night together don't have an IQ.These people have no principals..to save they're own neck they did this to the Taxpayer and fellow citizens.A law suit has to be startet..to first of all delay this thing till the new Government comes in,and secondly to find out who created this mess in the first place.
4/5/2011 9:11:57 AM
Sandwiches1123 says:
We the people need to rid ourselves of this administration; we need to rid ourselves of the 8 people who voted in favour of this; we need to rid ourselves of the people who STOPPED looking out for our best interests as the voting public and started acting like a rogue government. To the people, we cannot accept this any longer. What is next? Are they going to blast the Sleeping Giant in order to put up a road to the middle of Lake Superior? Are they going to destroy our marshland to make way for a nuclear waste site? Your children and grandchildren thank you for RUINING what makes Thunder Bay a great place to live: our access to nature, beautiful landscape, and fresh air. Soon, the fresh air will be gone as well.
4/5/2011 9:22:18 AM
cachinnate says:
Good. Done. Now let's move forward
4/5/2011 9:22:40 AM
realistic1 says:
Rosalie Evans says she doesn't know how much rock will require blasting. The biggest unexpected change order at the Dorion windfarm site was the additional rock blasting required. Not even the geotech company saw it coming. I hope the people at the Norwester area are'nt on wells.
4/5/2011 9:29:32 AM
Maztec says:
Thankfully the city had the sense to not cave to these anti-wind lunatics any more than they already did.
4/5/2011 9:31:34 AM
Papercut says:
What needs to happen is: An inquiry into WHO is behind this whole deal. Who in the City tipped-off Horizon to the land and who started talking to them?

This person should NOT be employed by the city any longer in my opinion.
4/5/2011 9:32:24 AM
MarathonLogger says:
I doubt anyone in the city "tipped" them off to the property.

Residents/property owners all around the thunder bay area have been approached (cold called) about leasing their land to wind developers for the past 10 years. The proposed projects in Lappe, Murillo, and Neebing municipality have been all from the potential developer expressing interest in the properties. One day a letter shows up, or phone call inquiries.

I have no inside knowledge of the Horizon process, but i imagine they, like other developers, examined topographical mapping, consulted the Ontario Wind atlas, and any number of other resources. Then they probably made the inquiries to the administration themselves. I know most developers prefer to look for crown land, as it's a much easier process to just deal with a singular entity that want's the projects in the first place. Dealing with multiple landowners takes more time to negotiate with, say 20-30 landowners. This singular 17,000 acre parcel was probably what interested them most.

It's my understanding there are no fewer than 4 developers from small companies up to one of the big boys, so to speak, roaming about the hwy 61 corridor to the border contacting property owners. I've run across one of the pickups from the RES job at Dorion driving the backroads of blake, crooks, pardee, and gilles townships, last fall, over about 2 weeks off and on, and the driver and passengers weren't dressed for hunting. Met towers are springing up in Murillo, Lappe, the FWFN, etc. There's great interest in the area, by more than Horizon.

You're fixated on the premise that, should this singular "person to blame" exist, we should publicly flog them, and then turn back time. Maybe then this would never have happened. Get back to us when you invent the time machine.

Meanwhile, there's plenty of us that need some work, and since this job will cost upwards of 200 million to construct, probably much more with later phases, every logging, road construction contractor, heavy equipment, concrete suppliers, and gravel truck owner is chomping at the bit for some much needed work to hire back their employees.

As well, the local lawyers need work too. So pony up your 5 or 6 figure retainers, and let them churn it for a year or two. When they ask for more, don't be surprised.
4/5/2011 12:01:44 PM
Tannoy says:
"And while $20,000 per turbine might be low for some people at least it’s something he added. "

So can the people of this city sue the council that passed this in the first place and got us into this mess? At least it could get us something!
4/5/2011 9:37:38 AM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
Guvmint in action,,,working for YOU.
4/5/2011 9:59:24 AM
67mike says:
Nice to know that TB Hydro is going to be on the hook for up to $7.1 MILLION dollars to hook this up!

Guess who pays for that.....us all, even the mouthbreathers in PA.
4/5/2011 10:03:31 AM
ANVIL OF CROM says:
Well 67 when you ears bleed from the ultrasound and your eyes blow out due to occular strokes you can come on over to good old port arthur land of the proud and free! I'll even buy you a white cane and take you to Mickey D's .
4/5/2011 12:40:36 PM
Gord says:
My empathy for the people of Fort William First Nation has grown. I now know what it feels like to have a merciless developer come in and steal land out from under us while pretending to be our "partners". Ironically, the Loch Lomond watershed lands are within the traditional territory of Fort William, and these are being left unprotected by the same people that stole them from FWFN in the first place.

Clearly, the people in support of this initiative have not taken the time to watch the Council meetings and listen to the deputations from the NMEPC. The NMEPC group have done their homework and have presented some balanced and well articulated arguments. Unfortunately, their presentations fall on the deaf ears of an un-aware and oblivious Council. I would be curious to hear the answer to the question "What experience does Ms. Evans have when it comes to negotiating these deals" Clearly, she is in over her head in this case, to the detriment of us all.
4/5/2011 10:29:06 AM
Papercut says:
There needs to be an investigation into WHO tipped-off the developer about this land and who started the deal in the first place!

I think the RCMP should be the ones to do it.
4/5/2011 10:38:44 AM
leaving807 says:
Disappointing that we're again damaging the city’s reputation. At best we look incompetent for negotiating a lousy deal in the first place. And at worst we look idiotic for being snowed by a corporation.
In reality I think we have and continue to be manipulated by a misguided and misinformed special interest group. And now a council who is more interested in banging a drum and creating noise because that's easier than dealing with substantive issues facing Thunder Bay.
In the interim we get to watch the circus of our mayor fighting with our police chief and making allusions about Horizon acting like a demented miner running around with dynamite in his pockets.
4/5/2011 10:42:32 AM
whodo says:
To think Angus and Foulds belong to a political party that boosts that it is a PEOPLES PARTY.

Shocked but not surprised.
4/5/2011 10:52:55 AM
observer says:
You can thank the former Mayor Peterson for this and the council. But the people from this city voted for the same damn councillors, so who is stupid
4/5/2011 10:58:50 AM
myopic not foolish says:
Maybe they didn't vote for these clowns. There were voting glitches on election day. And they never did a manual count to verify if the machines were working properly.
Besides, why would anybody vote for a different mayor and keep the rest of those clowns around. Who on this forum voted that way. Lets have a poll.
4/5/2011 11:27:14 AM
imbroglio says:
I did
4/5/2011 4:48:25 PM
myopic not foolish says:
So only oe person on this forum voted for a different mayor but kept the same council. I rest my case.
4/8/2011 9:24:42 AM
sam says:
Yeah maybe the city could have negotiated a better deal, and maybe Horizon was opportunistic, but that is the way business works folks.

And I also think down the road when the turbines are up and running people who live near them will realize that they are not noisy, nobody is getting sick, property values have not gone down and they will get used to the way they look.
4/5/2011 11:04:57 AM
tiredofit says:
Sam, residents who are currently trying to sell their home are feeling the effects of it now, never mind down the road. Sure, you can blame it on the Escarpment committee, why not, after all they started this whole mess right? The reality of it is, the City created this mess for the residents and their mad as hell and are going to fight back on this. So let’s remove the noise and health issues, but the issue surrounding land value is still there and very present. Despite what the Industry claims, values have and do drop, dramatically in some cases (46%). What’s industries solution in Southern Ontario? The developers purchase the homes and force the owners to sign a gag order, doubt me? Check out the issues in Orangeville ON, one developer spent 1.75 million on 5 homes alone.

What happens when the residents decide to file a 100 million dollar lawsuit? If I recall the city stated that we don’t have worry, Horizon hasn’t got anything on us! Well, they settled pretty darn fast if you ask me. They even paid more for legal fees than Horizon was asking for (review the court documents, it’s all there)

We aren’t a bunch of country bumkins out here and we have no problems taking on the idiots on Donald St. who created this mess. This is about protecting our investments and our future out here, nothing more. When the next developer comes to town, doesn’t fully get his/her way, all they have to do is sue and the city will cave. Based on this, any developer can now simply say I want place XX turbines in a residential area and the city can’t do squat because the precedence has been set and it might very well be your back yard next.
4/5/2011 6:49:51 PM
combatwombat says:
So your telling me the Save the Norwesters Escarpment committee actively promoted the "fact" through their website, that real estate can be effected negetively in value by a windfarm being located nearby? ( close needs to be defined i might add)
Also this info was distributed to everyone who wanted to know? ie: buyers, sellers in that area?
So in fact it can be argued that the committee "promoted" lower real estate prices themselves!! .
Certainly NOT higher
In fact property values seem to be decreasing even before city council in voted , and the windfarm started to "exist" Q!
So what caused this? not an existing windfarm

THE SAVE THE NORWESTER COMMITTEE.

But, a few logical questions.
Did all houses close to existing windfarms studied go down in price?
What if some stayed the same or went up?(funny never mentioned)
If that happened , then an argument against the negetive effect of a windfarm becomes very tenuous possibly invalid.
Even if one single area did this.

So that may save the city and the save the norwester folks.
So i submit for an argument that the Save the Norwester Committee has in promoted e hiousing prices in the neebign area.
And as such are somewhat responsible.

THEY HAVE OPENED THEMSELVES UP FOR LITIGATION.

Oh yea suing the city , who i might add did a poor job, in turn sucks as well!
4/6/2011 5:53:06 PM
sam says:
@the wolf, I know what you mean, I like Hobbs and voted for him but was not impressed the way he performed last night. Among other things he said calling the norwester mountains one of the wonders of the world..really.

I think he has also realized that he is not the President of Thunder Bay with all kinds of power to yield, but only a figurehead councillor with one vote.





4/5/2011 11:17:38 AM
myopic not foolish says:
First off, there is no way Horizon would get $126 million. Whenever a lawsuit is thrown our there they always throw a big number out there. Case in point, Brian McRae sued the city for 9 million, the city settled for $650,000. Based on his recent track record, the city would have been able to win that case. Last night it was stated that Horizon is involved in 4 other lawsuits with communities. That should tell people something.

Secondly, these are not NIMBYS fighting this project, these are people who’s lives will be permanently affected as a result of these stupid turbines being put in place.

The bottom line is no matter which direction the city would’ve taken, a lawsuit would’ve been filed. This onto itself makes this a bad deal, heads should roll.

Mark Smith for this project

Catherine Dugmore and Greg Alexander for the waterfront

And Tim Commisso for the whole damn thing!
4/5/2011 11:19:41 AM
tsb says:
It's funny that they complain about how ugly the turbines will be when 90% of the houses in South Neebing are hideous by themselves.
4/5/2011 11:32:09 AM
hockeyskates says:
Mayor Hobbs: I have supported you on this post since you announced your candidacy. So you could call me a fan, and I still am, but I see a pattern here which should be addressed.

Rhetoric is a necessary part of politics, but when used indiscriminately you can end up creating more problems than you are trying to solve. Your comments on the Wind Farm were over the top, irresponsible, misleading, and at times just plain unfounded. This is also part of a recent trend, which I won't go into here.

While public figures enjoy the warm fuzzy feeling they get when a microphone in their face, there are times when words should be toned down or not said at all.

Last night was one of those times, as the city wrestled with a difficult and divisive problem. The spotlight was on the issue, as Council tried to make the best of a bad situation. It was not about you. In fact you were not even mayor when this deal went down. But you tried to make it about you, and steal the spotlight with the most inflammatory words spoken all night.

Last night was a time for moderation and conciliation. As a new member of council, you were well positioned to take that role. Instead you took another path which accomplished nothing positive, other than perhaps solidifying 500 votes in the Neebing ward four years hence.

The election is over, it is time for leadership, and that often takes the form of quiet thoughtful and reasoned discussion.

Your fan : hockeyskates.
4/5/2011 11:53:26 AM
myopic not foolish says:
First off I commend Mayor Hobbs for stating the obvious. He was not being negative. He was being pragmatic. No one on city council is big enough to admit they made a mistake. It would be sadder still if these people on council really don't think thye made a mistake. Oh well. I guess every great project such as this one is built on a foundation of lawsuits, divisives and ambiguity.
4/5/2011 12:21:03 PM
Gord says:
This is a freaky reversal for us skates - Im ok with Hobbs for a change and you are complaining about him.... In general, I do agree in general with your new opinion of Hobbs... However, when compared with the political mush and mamby-pamby nature of many on Council, Mr. Foulds for example, Hobbs direct expression of his opinion was actually refreshing. They were set to make a monumental mistake and the time was not available for quiet contemplation. Whether you are for this project or against it, nobody can pretend that this deal is a good one.
4/5/2011 12:48:25 PM
hockeyskates says:
Hey Gordo it is strange. I am still a fan of Hobbs, and I still like his pragmatic approach. However, last night was not the night to be pouring gas on the fire. He is still a rookie in politics and he will grow into the job as time passes.

And while I have your attention did you actually compare the wealthy landed gentry of Neebing Ward to the tragedy that the People of Canada's First Nations suffered at the hands of the Europeans ? Wow That is a stretch don't you think ?
4/5/2011 3:07:33 PM
Gord says:
yup, he is a political neophyte, we can agree there - Im not sure i agree his approach is pragmatic, i'd probably be more inclined to refer to it as egocentric, but we are each entitled to our opinion on that. I was actually glad to see him respond with some passion without a political filter. Unfortunately for him, I'm sure he set his cause backward as the offended Councillors lay in wait to get even....not too smart on his part (which I guess is your point Rats - we agree again)

I'm glad I caught your attention with my comparison - it was 'literary license' used for effect. I was illustrating that I can now empathize more closely with groups that have had their land stolen out from under them with no consideration. I definitely did not intend to disrepect the plight of First Nation people - their land transaction history in Canada is much worse and no real comparison... the analogy was used solely for illustration and effect.
4/5/2011 7:09:07 PM
calvin15 says:
I think this may have been one of my biggest..."I told you so"...but we will have to live with him for 4 years...unless something happens...hence my pool comment on another story.

From the day he announced his run for mayor I said he is very self serving and confrontational...I think he thought he was running for Dictator of Thunder Bay...and now realizes he is just one voice...a very loud voice but just one voice.

What has he done in 100 plus days as Mayor...gone for a bus ride (photo op included)...come up with a curfew..which he took advice from a grade 6 student on (the curfew doesn't seem to gather much support)...it is easy to criticize which he has done a lot of...but the real deal is come up with solutions...I am still waiting...didn't he have all sorts of $ saving ideas just for the police force...

And as for this windmill deal...I don;t know what to think....I just get this feeling that the City is scrambling and is coming out on the short end of the stick....
4/5/2011 3:40:24 PM
unknowncronic says:
Unreal! Unreal! Unreal! Unreal! Unreal! Unreal! Unreal! Unreal! Unreal! Unreal!
All the peeps on city council have lost my support & future support...
Hopefully NONE of them get re-elected again!
4/5/2011 11:55:39 AM
homelessteen says:
This really is great news. Hopefully it will create some jobs and boost our economy from something other than government wages and hand outs. If this city stopped trying to chase investment away this city would be in much better shape economically for my generation and the next. Hopefully the boomers leave us with more than just debt.
4/5/2011 11:58:50 AM
papercut says:
Marathon logger:

You might be correct? BUT, I think it is very clear that this was very poorly handled.

The deal is so one-sided that it makes you think that perhaps the folks who drew it up; who, by the way, are suppose to be watching out for our (the taxpayer/citizen's best interest), had some other motives? They did a very poor job from what has been made public, so I really think it should be investigated so that mistakes like this do not continue.
4/5/2011 12:27:55 PM
made says:
Sam's comment:
And I also think down the road when the turbines are up and running people who live near them will realize that they are not noisy, nobody is getting sick, property values have not gone down and they will get used to the way they look...

But if they don't what then?...I think the city will get sued...even worse than by Horizon. With what is happening in the rest of the province...in the rest of the WORLD...chances are it won't be pretty.

Hockeyskates says:
The spotlight was on the issue, as Council tried to make the best of a bad situation. It was not about you. In fact you were not even mayor when this deal went down. But you tried to make it about you, and steal the spotlight with the most inflammatory words spoken all night.

Here you were referring to mayor Hobbs but if you look at it from the residents in south Neebing you could have replaced your statement to direct at Ms. Johnson. Mayor Hobbs was one of the few that was NOT thinking about himself.

4/5/2011 12:44:44 PM
67mike says:
Anvil:

I will take you up on the offer of supper at rottenronies.....but, we better do it soon: you won't be able to afford it after TB hydro hikes our rates to pay for the hook up to the project!
4/5/2011 1:14:37 PM
anvil of crom says:
i will order you the happy meal that way maybe you will lighten up, and you can brighten the room, then we can turn off the lights and save on the hydro bill.
4/5/2011 3:38:56 PM
Harold Checkley says:
Citizens need to open their eyes and understand all the facts as it is laid out to the entire citizen base of Thunder Bay. Not just of your own emotional backyard.

I am very happy that the city resolved the $126 million law suit. Why in the world would I want my taxes to increase due to a small minority. If they wanted to stop the turbines, then they could have offered to foot the bill.

My favorite quote of the night came from Hobbs: "They're going to blast the crap out of the mountain." I'm sure he was speaking technically, and I'm currently trying to Google if that mountain is one of the wonders of the world!

Also, why not do some real journalism and uncover the truth behind some of these politician's decisions. Mr. Hobbs was seen talking to a lead Nor'Wester Mountain Escarpment Protection Committee member before going into an in camera session. Mr. Hobbs haven't you learned once already from the Police Board that you should not be disclosing in-camera topics to the general public. By gosh, one of the many reasons in the law suit is because of topics leaked by another too vocal aniti-wind member Rydholm. And last but not least... Mr. Boshcoff, you should have removed yourself from the vote last night. Prior to you being elected back into Municipal government, you were last running a consulting company that spent a considerable amount of time with the Nor'Wester Mountain Escarpment Protection Committee. Another conflict of interest? Ken, an honourbale politician would also remove his presence from the municipal table while campaigning for Federal Government.

As I always like to say: "When the circus is not in town and you need a laugh, just turn to local politics and you'll be sure to find a clown insight."
4/5/2011 1:31:05 PM
animiki says:
Those who are opposed to this project may wish to consult with the leadership of Fort William First Nation, and with that First Nations' Provincial Tribal Organization (PTO), Anishnabek Nation (Union of Ontario Indians) which is actually based in North Bay. Now, these folks may not be interested in opposing the project. But they may and, thanks to Section 35 of the Constitution, are entitled to be properly consulted by "the Crown" when any development occurs on their traditional lands that affect their interests. There are a number of legal points that would have to be addressed (for example, this land is owned by the City? Is it Crown or private land? To what extent do FWFN and/or UOI have a retained interest in this land? Etc.) However, Section 35 is pretty clear, has formed the basis for a number of landmark Supreme Court rulings, and has influenced government policy and legislation quite heavily. As politically-interested organizations, groups like UOI are generally always open to discussions about projects like this, especially as they may set precedents in other parts of their territory.

I'm just sayin'
4/5/2011 1:57:32 PM
truth says:
The councillors who wanted this project were voted in again .. hrmm .. maybe take that as a sign of the will of the people ..

You worry about hydro rates? Hydro rates are determined by a third party and not the hydro companies themselves. I would have more concern over the fact that the government of Ontario has promised home based solar projects 80 cents per kw/h while we at home pay about 15 cents per kw/h. That difference has to come from someone.
4/5/2011 2:22:20 PM
Papercut says:
tsb:

Wow, you find the majority of homes in South Neebing "hideous"?

What part of the world is host to such a magnatron such as yourself?

Let me guess: tsb= the simpson-street badboy.
4/5/2011 2:35:23 PM
wayne says:
Let's move forward now...and I'm glad that Hobb's shaky-voiced strategy (obviously endorsed by the gallery), was defeated. Ruberto is another guy that needs to get in touch with reality and progress of green energy. Rydholm was just defending her constituency, so cut her some slack.
4/5/2011 3:20:55 PM
ozone says:
Listen to the all the hypocrites.

The same Councillors that campaigned on the environment and quality of life in Thunder Bay ( Angus, Foulds) now are folding like a house of cards.

The whole council is using avoiding the lawsuit as the reason they voted for this messed up deal. Yet, they are the ones that signed this messed up deal in the first place.

The City Solicitor who now is touting a resolution to the issue should have dealt with this BEFORE the agreement was signed in the first place and should be removed in my opinion.

This City needs a serious review of the City Administration, accountability and responsibilities.

The Thunder Bay voters need to remember these fiascos for the next municipal election that sadly is three years away.




4/5/2011 3:32:16 PM
nser says:
Thunder Bay has nothing and never will....The Neebing whiners think they own the land and view around their houses lol. They were an embarrassment at city council and once again show all viewers what Thunder Bay has to offer
" NOTHING ".
4/5/2011 3:59:42 PM
tbresident says:
I demand an autoposy on this mess. Mr. Mayor - please have City release a report on this project: Whose idea it was, how it got through admin and onto the floor for council to vote on.

Only by studying our past mistakes will we learn. If its covered up - we'll continue to screw up.
4/5/2011 4:11:52 PM
treesrgood says:
Council voted against this same City Administration resolution 2 weeks prior to the election in October; how could they resubmit same only worse? In October Council refused to accept the $20,000 in 16 years pittance for decommissioning (it is usual to put up 1 million per turbine up front) and refused to provide Loch Lomond Road Access and had a limit on the number of turbines. Now they completely reverse their decision and give Horizon carte blanche-- shame on McKinnon, Virdiramo, Bentz for the flipflop - Angus, Johnson, Giertuga and Foulds have been hopeless from the start -- caring only for themselves; willing to disregard their citizens for a Toronto swindler. We need an overhaul of Administration and a Council who will demand better.
4/5/2011 5:17:40 PM
Kidknapp says:
Let's get on with it already!
4/5/2011 6:05:33 PM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
The Nimbys in that area seem to have managed to hex a total kibosh on the Trans-Canada Trail, which runs past numerous propserous local squires palacial haciendas 'neath the Nor'Westers. Touristas and hikers, skiers along the Snore'Westers? Nope.
4/5/2011 6:29:29 PM
pieislandrefugee says:
Let this be a lesson and a reminder how your government does NOT look out for your best interests, only theirs.

Its all just a charade whose players serve to entertain those with the cash.

I suggest a strong and continued voice of disgust to those who supported this BS. Because the sooner we're finished being divided, the sooner we can settle this nonsense and get back to being Canada and the country it once was.

A good start would be to reject all liberal ideas.
4/5/2011 9:46:19 PM
wayne says:
"It's about protecting our investments, nothing more" Nothing more? So it is about money, and not health risks/hazards, protecting maples or birds, it boils down to Neebing residents not wanting to see the wind turbines from their property because of an unsubstantiated fear of a drop in property value. Good luck trying to prove that one in court.

tiredofit says:
I believe it was Miss Evans who said a while back that we will face the lesser of the two evils in court. Well... here we go again. Whats to say that the resident's won't now file a 100 million dollar lawsuit? Who wins? NO ONE but HORIZON as usual.

For those who think the Neebing resident's don't have a case, your in for a big suprise. There's a lot of money in the area and a large portion are more than happy to contribute to a lawsuit. It's not about making money off of the city, it's about protecting our investments, nothing more. We can hire big ugly lawyers just as well as Horizon. Sorry Thunder Bay.
4/5/2011 10:50:05 PM
tiredofit says:
Wayne, I stand by those words, those are my words and my opinions. Several hundred residents in the area are pissed about a lot more than just the value of their properties. I for one am very upset that my property values have dropped based on this. A family purchased their home on Broad Oaks 2 years ago for just over 400k have now had to reduce it to $340k and it still won't sell. I've spoken with some of the individuals at the open house and they all have the same concerns, be it view shed, values and potential health problems.

You can't blame the economy for the loss in value when other areas are increasing, not taking a 60k hit on their investments. Prior to this crap houses sold within days and usually for more than the asking price.

Horizon now has cart blanch to do as they please, they can now install 600ft towers (on a 550ft mountain), if you actually take the time to read the agreements, both old and the new one, you’ll see how this city sold out its citizens.

I look forward to filing a lawsuit, you and others seem to think it’s a waste of time and money, I don’t, we’ve done the research, we’ve discussed with some of the top lawyers. As I mentioned earlier, the city was pretty quick to claim that Horizon didn’t have a case, notice they haven’t said that about the residents? There are over 2000 homes out here and a good portion of those are willing to fight.
4/6/2011 12:44:28 PM
combatwombat says:
this is a bogus argument and heres why,

A decrease in home value this can be looked at in more then one way.
SO heres a few ideas:
1. some opportunistic househunter knowing the windmills are going up and knowing residents are EXPECTING their real estate will drop comes around looking for a good deal AND .... low balls an offer.

2. A person comes by looks at the house knows about the windmills doesnt care and LOWBALLS AN OFFER.
3. or the house hunter knows nothing of the windfarm and LOW BALLS AN OFFER!!!

HMMM to me one would think, if a buyer believed that windmills were so bad, they would bypass looking at a house in that area all together!

Lowball offers do happen!
But now any lowball offers are due to the windmills!!

The real problem is this, some local residents ARE ADVERTISING ( also through their advocate arms, The escarpment committee for one ) that there OWN real estate will go down in value due to the windfarms because it did elsewhere.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!!by reating a self fullfilling prophecy!
An argument based on a premise that the antiwindfarm promoted!!!
My God the humanity!

Listen,people are always looking to get a deal on real estate, so here another reason if you believe the claims or not!
IF i was a resident and I was offered less for my house ( and i dont beleive it was JUST a lowball offer) i would sue the city and the anti windfarm people WHO ADVERTSED THIS !LOCALLY!

BUT really do we, the reader, have real info , on why the offer was 60,000.
NO.
Only someone on this site saying the offer was less.
thats all.
Who knows maybe Mike Holmes was seen in the area looking at the house?( coming not going LOL)
or the resident painted it pink? or chinese people just dug through the basement.

BUT its now a political blame game!

But heck, everyone has the option to litigate.
Maybe some will feel by my statements here that I dont care , i do.
Zwig is an opportunistic cash seeker. BUT
I cant stand bogus illogical arguments.
People putting the spin on things now.
So Advertise you real estate is going down, it will !
4/6/2011 4:44:10 PM
windphart says:
Combat, you know what's bogus? Seeing the average thumbs up agree between 10 and 50 and seeing yours clocked up over 250. You must be bored.
I don't think Tiredofit was referring to just offers. That might fly if people were low balling in other areas of the city. Talk to a realtor. It's still a seller's market. People here are getting asking price for their homes. I for one had three bids on a home; none of the offers were below asking price. But that home was in the north end not Neebing. That blows your theory, but thanks for coming out.
4/8/2011 12:27:01 AM
whatever333 says:
ONLY IN BLUNDER BAY
4/6/2011 9:00:57 AM
Dan Dan says:
I can't believe how much crying there has been over bringing new business to the city. It is a sad day when a bunch of malcontents and rednecks in the south can hijack a good thing for Thunder Bay.
4/6/2011 3:10:34 PM
Random says:
Malcontents and rednecks in the south? Hey Dan Dan...I have a thought for you. If these turbines aren't such eye sore and will bring jobs to our city, why don't we offer Horizon the best location of all? The entire waterfront! It's really windy, and the towers are so beautiful to look at, no one will have a problem with them being there! It's a win win! People like you, nser, tsb etc can look at em all day long, maybe with the song ''dream weaver'' playing in the background. I challenge any of you to try and explain why placing them along the waterfront would be a bad idea, while placing them along the nor'wester is a good idea. C'mon...lets hear it. As for jobs?? Give your head a shake. The few jobs in exchange for that forest being destroyed...nice trade off. Oh, any idea where that power is going? Not here, we have a surplus...all to S.Ontario.
4/6/2011 6:13:54 PM
lori says:
Dan Dan------

I am going to stay out of the good or bad of this. some of the concerns from tiredofit seem legit to me.

But can you just outline for all of us what jobs you think are coming here as a result of this deal and how this is a GOOD thing for T.Bay.

Just outline for me what you think are the pluses of this deal. I am very interested to hear the positives

4/6/2011 10:37:14 PM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
No de-commissioning costs whatsoever. Let the scroungers boost all the copper cable and the City can simply let the propellors sit up there to rot, like most of what was once downtown Fort Williams. Out-of-town passers-by may even be left with the(positive) impression they are still working.
4/7/2011 10:07:52 AM
tiredofit says:
We just found out that the MOE has basically rejected the plan submitted by Horizon, this one done in late March. I wonder if the city was aware of this when they tried to ram this through without proper consultation with the people of Thunder Bay. So basically Horizon has to go back and correct all of its’ errors and resubmit yet again. Make me wonder if these guys really know what they’re doing, they seem to be good at suing city’s its dealing with and that about it. They now have 4 lawsuits in the works; do you really want to have a company such as this dealing with TBay? Seems to me if the city makes the smallest of moves they don’t like they simply threaten or actually file a lawsuit.
They sure have the city councilors running scared!

PS: Combatwombat, seems you have a lot of time on your hands being able to sit their and vote for you comments so many times. I think Windphart summed it up pretty good.
4/8/2011 1:40:56 PM
67mike says:
I just heard a rumour that there is a BIG surprise comming to the meeting on Monday.....it all makes sense now, why they pressured city counsel to approve the new so-called agreement.......

Watch the Shaw broadcast of the city meeting Monday if you want to get your eyes opened.
4/8/2011 1:44:58 PM
Peng says:
Combat Wombat, maybe your Hodaka exhaust fumes are a little to strong, but you do have some good points.

House values are based on many things, including whether people believe the value will go up or down.

If house prices are already depressed in the Norwester area due to the possibility of a windfarm , it could mean that enough buyers BELIEVE that house prices will be negatively affected if the turbines are built.

The signs on lawns would support that many local residents believe the project is bad for the neighbourhood.

If enough buyers didnt believe prices are negatively impacted, the price depression would be mitigated.

A rational person can understand that if the value of a property is based on its location in a scenic and quiet area, and that scenic quality and quiet is threatened, then the value will decrease.

Even the threat is enough

If the threat is actualised, then the price would drop even more.

If the project is built, and IF the threat is unfounded, then prices will recover

If this dog of a project is never built then prices will recover
4/8/2011 11:48:22 PM
wayne says:
citizens of Thunder Bay, listen to the 'threats' of tiredofit. Again, the wealthy residents of South Neebing are trying to persuade the rest of us that their ridiculous claims are going to have an impact on the city as a whole. There is no real evidence for their number one concern, that being the reduction of property values. They claim to have 'informal' polls, but that means polls of those living in South Neebing. NIMBY mentality prevails, and Mayor Hobbs seems to support them, even though his dramatic and weak appeal at the last city council meeting was defeated.
4/9/2011 12:36:16 AM
tiredofit says:
Wayne, think what you want and now way have I made any threats. You seem to think that the residents are wealthy? Think again. As for property values dropping out here, do the research and we'll talk. The informal poll was taken at a grocery store on Arthur St. We aren't a bunch of stupid hicks. Time will tell and it will also prove us correct. The threat of lawsuits by the residents are very real and very much in the works, some as a group, some individual ones.
4/9/2011 9:06:25 PM
windphart says:
Wayne; Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You just don't like it when it doesn't agree with yours. Have you spoke to a Real Estate board? Have you done any research other than here or a few web pages? Probably not.
Let's see, what did the NIMBY's figure out over the past two years....
1. Horizon could care less about the citizen's of TBay, apparent by their lawsuit.
2. Their shady business dealings were justified to hide the many "gotchas" revealed over the past few weeks.
3. They are going to make millions. It's going to cost us the same.

Even if they ratify and agree to the settlement, at least have some brains to recoup your costs. $10,000 won't even cover decomissioning costs in today's dollars let alone 25 years from now. Counc. Foulds says "As least it's something". The crane rental is $10,000/day. Let's do some simple math:
We're going to get $10k for say 56 turbines or just over half a million. In reality it costs in today's dollars about 5.6million. That's about the amount estimated the city would have to pay if they lost the law suit. Factor in 25 years of inflation, I'd say the lawsuit's looking pretty good right now.
Horizon wasn't just not up front with us, they also weren't up front with the Province as they recently had their REA (the report required to go ahead with the project) rejected as it was FULL of errors and ommissins...big surprise.
They now have to redo the report as they've totally changed the scope of the project.

WHY THEN, is the city just sitting back and letting them do what they want???
4/10/2011 1:02:31 PM
tiredofit says:
The question that should be asked is: How bad did the city screw up that they simply caved to the lawsuit? They obviously made some pretty big blunders that they're giving in so quickly and offering up so much more than before. If I recall, when the lawsuit was announced the city felt they didn't have anything to worry about, yet here we are.
4/10/2011 3:32:59 PM
tiredofit says:
HERE ARE THE FACTS:
The City has recklessly put its citizens and various businesses at risk with their lack of consultation and due diligence!
This project has been the subject of secret and closed door meetings from the beginning!
This proposed new agreement could allow site development before all provincial approvals - at the City's risk!
This proposed new agreement removes all ability for the City to have any say on any development for the next 45 years!
The proposed new agreement would allow Horizon to build towers with NO HEIGHT RESTRICTION! (Over 600ft, 185m on a 500ft mountain)
The proposed new agreement was rushed through trying to keep the public from having any input.
The proposed new agreement may expose the City to future lawsuits and liability over improper land expropriation, noise and damage to property!
The destruction of a natural beautiful escarpment replaced by an industrial zone!
The potential of serious health related issues as seen in Southern Ontario as well the rest of the world

The City has betrayed the trust of landowners who purchased their homes with no understanding that such plans existed as early as 2006. People who purchased and/or built their homes and businesses after 2006 had no way of knowing about the proposed wind farm!

SERIOUS FINANCIAL BURDENS FOR ALL CITIZENS INCLUDES:
Millions in hydro connection costs (est. $8 million)
Millions in decommissioning costs—Horizon is to provide $20,000 for decommissioning, effective in 16 years; current costs for decommissioning are well over $100,000 per turbine and will be much higher 16 years down the road. One Councilor stated, “Well—it’s better than nothing!” Other municipalities are charging upwards of $150,000 per turbine due at the start of construction.
Potential increase in property taxes city wide due to a decline in the tax base from Neebing landowners.

A potential $18 million a year in profits for the client. The City’s potential take is $200,000 minus costs!
These decisions by the City affect everyone in Thunder Bay. You may pay more in taxes and Hydro because of this project! Your neighborhood could be next, and you might never know until it is too late.

COUNCIL NEEDS TO PROTECT ITS CITIZENS AND NOT BE BULLIED
4/10/2011 3:36:30 PM
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